[0:00] If you're a mother, you do not want to miss today's episode. I'm speaking to Amy Taylor Khabbaz. She's a best-selling author, speaker, and matrescence activist. Back in 2023, she launched the Global Matrescence Foundation, and she is helping change the way that mothers are supported and valued in the world. We talk about the shift in identity that we experience when we become mothers, the split between who we used to be and then who we are as a mother. She has me in tears by the end of the episode. This is really powerful stuff. Enjoy. Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
[0:43] I'm so excited to be here, Erin. Thank you for inviting me. You're welcome. And I want to dive straight in. So for those people who are listening to this or watching this and thinking, but what is matrescence? How do you define that?
[0:59] Matrescence is the explanation of what happens to us as women when we become mothers that most of us have been searching for since we first thought about becoming a mother. It really explains the huge identity shift that happens within us, not how we mother our children, but what happens to us as women. It was first coined in the 1960s, but only recently has it really resurfaced. And the best way to describe it, and I'm sure we will over the next half an hour, but the best way to describe it, first of all, is matrescence is like adolescence. Just like we don't expect our teenagers, and I have two of them, to wake up on their 13th birthday and have everything figured out and know who they are as an adult. We give them this period of grace to question, to fall apart, to challenge themselves and us and question the world and try things and try again. And we give them understanding and support on their way to becoming an adult. But that's a fairly modern concept. There was times in history where we didn't understand adolescence and there was a theory that we went mad on the way to becoming an adult.
[2:19] And matrescence is a similar transition of identity where there is a period of not knowing who we are yet.
[2:27] And we will question things and challenge things and doubt things and fall apart and rebuild. And we need the same level of grace and support around that period of figuring out who we are as mothers, which we now give to our teenagers. And I wish that we gave to women. This is such an important thing to share, isn't it? Because I am totally resonating with what you're saying. And I think what strikes me is I felt like I knew what I would be like as a mother when I wanted to get pregnant. And then when I got pregnant, I had this whole vision of who I was going to be. And that was an earth mother. And I was going to have a natural birth and I was going to breastfeed. And I was going to immerse myself in being with my baby. And it was all going to be wonderful. And that's what the books told me it would be like. And then when I became a mother and I had an emergency cesarean and my milk didn't come in and I felt like a complete failure, I was not that person. And so I totally resonate with this because you don't know how you're going to feel when you've had that baby.
[3:38] No, just like we can't tell our 12 and a half year old in six months time, here's what it's going to be like to be an adult. We can't even warn them that much about adolescence. We kind of tell them what hormones it's going to feel like and how. But each and every one of them will crash land into that period of their life in their own way and have their own challenges with friends and hormones and body image and all of those things. The same thing happens to us. And I was the same but different. And this is what I love about the work that I've been doing for over a decade is that so many of us had different expectations of what it would be like to be a mother. I didn't have many expectations at all. I thought I'd just kind of add it to my resume. me. Motherhood was not the thing at the top. I didn't have an idea of what I would be like, but that unto itself was its own idea. But no matter what story you held about what it would be like to be a mother, when you get there, it's different. And we don't allow a space for women to voice that, to question it, to be safe to say it. And that's what we need to be doing differently.
[4:49] Absolutely. And also, you know, this from the women that I've worked with, I'm not alone in becoming a mother, being the catalyst for starting my own business, you know, and like there are so many things that you do. Yeah. And this is the thing, there are so many things that feed into this change in our own perception and our own values and, you know, and our own measures of success as well, that makes us question how we've been living and working up until that point. So what was it for you? Because you were, you know, working on ABC,
[5:23] covering breaking news, you know, what everyone would see is like a super successful career. What made you change and do what you're doing now? Well, I had no intention to change ever. And it took me a long time to even own that I wanted to change. And then when I did own that I had, ever since I was a little girl, and this is no exaggeration, I remember being in the car. I grew up in the outback of Australia. So for the UK and worldwide listeners, like smack bang in the middle of Australia in the desert near Ayers Rock, like the middle of nowhere. And my dad was the local cop. The local policemen, and the only media we had was the ABC.
[6:06] So I grew up on the ABC. I grew up listening to ABC radio. I listened to the news like kids nowadays would listen to nursery rhymes. It was just how I was brought up and I always wanted to do it. And I remember hearing live crosses to war zones and the start of the Gulf War and all of this. And I just thought, I can't believe somebody gets to do that. That is so amazing. Here I am in this tiny outback town and I can hear what it sounds like on the other side of the world. It formed who I was and who I thought I would always be.
[6:40] And so, you know, went ahead and did that, went to university, studied international politics, went to university in Japan, left uni, got a job at the ABC, was on my way, had such a clear path in my mind of who I was going to be. But within that, Erin, was this hyper-independence. It was this, I was also raised by a very proud feminist, very strong father who told me I could do anything and be anything. thing. He didn't have any sons. So, you know, we were the masculine energy in the family.
[7:17] So I never allowed myself to think about what it would be like for somebody else to support me. I liked the idea of being a mum and knew I would be one, but it didn't take up any space in my thinking or my planning and was on my way. And then, you know, life happens, fell in love in my late 20s, got married, fell pregnant very quickly after my marriage and had a beautiful, easy pregnancy. Fell pregnant straight away, easy pregnancy. And so therefore, the story continued that this would just be something I added to my life.
[7:53] I remember saying very clearly to my husband, this isn't going to change us. Being parents is not going to change who we are. And he's like, yeah, of course not. We're still who we are. we always will be. I went into it with such this eyes wide closed thinking of who this was going to be as a mother. I honestly, I said before, I honestly thought it would be something I added to a resume. And I don't mean that as in dismissive. I just, I never thought or heard that it would change me. So then I had a very traumatic birth with my daughter. She was born with quite a few physical problems.
[8:34] She couldn't turn her head at all. One side of her face had been underdeveloped in the womb. One foot was pushed up against her leg. She needed daily physio for six weeks in the hospital. She couldn't feed. She wouldn't sleep. She was an incredibly uncomfortable little soul. And she is now 16, and I still can't talk about it without tears coming into my eyes because it was the first time in my life where I realized that me trying harder would have no difference.
[9:08] And I'd spent my whole life believing that if I worked the hardest in the class, if I tried the hardest at work, if I studied the most, if I was the good girl, I would get what I wanted or not get what I wanted, but I I would get the results I was wanting. And here was this little, we jokingly, she was like a broken bird that had fallen out of the nest. She was just so helpless and I couldn't figure out how to fix it. And something...
[9:36] I used to say something broke in me, and I don't like that language anymore. Something changed in me, and it terrified me. At about three months old, she suddenly turned a corner physically and finally fed and slept, and she smiled and everything turned. But by that stage, I was really unwell with a thyroid condition that developed in that period that I still have now. and something had just, yeah, changed in me that brought in this doubt about who I was. And then suddenly I started looking at everything differently, just like our teenagers do, right? Suddenly I looked around and I wasn't so sure about this career that I'd spent my whole life wanting to be a part of. And I wasn't so sure about how strong I was and who I was as a person and what made me happy. And that's how it began for me. But it was a few years after that,
[10:37] that I finally realized what was going on. But at the time, it was a very scary and lonely time.
[10:45] Sharing that. And I think what comes up for me with that, and I think so many people will resonate with different parts of that story, is the fact that when we're in our 20s, and we've, you know started our careers and we feel like we almost have control over our lives and when you have a baby and something like that happens you realize you're not in control and these things are happening which we don't want to happen and we can't control it and that's so disempowering isn't it it's so disempowering and also being the journalist that I was I assumed that somebody would have the answer I mean I built my whole career on finding the expert expert. That's what I was really good at at work. So I did what I do, which is, well, surely somebody's talking about this. First of all, it was, there's got to be an expert out there to fix my baby. And that didn't happen. And then it was, there's got to be someone out there that can explain why I feel the way I do. But surely I'm not the only one. Like, this is what I would say to myself. Surely I'm not the only one who loves being a mum, but really wonders what the hell What the hell just happened to me?
[11:57] And nobody was talking about it. This was 16 years ago. I wasn't even on Facebook yet. Like there was no social media. There was no blogs. There was no anything. And I couldn't believe that I was the only person who was asking that question. I love being a mom. I'm figuring that part out. But what the hell just happened to me? And who am I now? Because I look in the mirror and I don't know who that person is anymore. And that was so scary. I'd love to share, actually. I haven't talked about this on the podcast before, but because it really resonates with me. And so my first son, who's now 15, so I get the teen years that we're in.
[12:40] He was poorly all the time, nothing as serious as your daughter, but constant ear infections. Then he was diagnosed with allergies. He literally didn't sleep through the night till he was three and a half years old. And so he would wake up every two hours screaming. So my nervous system was shot to pieces. And I was incredibly anxious because he was always ill. And what happened for me is I was, I mean, I felt like such a failure. Everyone around me was like boasting about how their child has slept through. And I would speak to, you know, health visitors and they would like, well, it's all about the routine. It's like, I've got the routine. I'm following them, but I'm doing these things that's not happening. I took him to cranial therapy just constantly and it was when he was three and a half, I was um I ran a jewelry business then and I was doing my stall at an event and I was complaining about how tired I was and this woman came over and said I hope you don't mind but I overheard you talking can I recommend this woman and she recommended this kinesiologist this is quite a long story so I'll try and summarize it basically I I sent her a message explaining that he was waking up every two hours screaming about all the different things that was going on. She called me one evening. I'd already put him down to sleep. And she started talking to me and she said, just so you know, I'm also psychically trained.
[14:03] And she said, I think this is actually about past lives. Now, I am very open-minded. I've been brought up by a hippie and very open-minded to that. My mum used to read the tarot for me.
[14:15] At that point, I heard crying from upstairs and then screaming and I ran upstairs and he was projectile vomiting around the room and he was not a sick sicky baby that hadn't been a problem so um I like I was like I've got to call you back and I sorted him out he went straight back to sleep and I called her back and she said this is wonderful because like kids are so intuitive and sensitive that he like this is starting to be released already and I've got goosebumps even telling you about how I went to see her the next say, and it was incredible. She used magnets and all these things. And she said that centuries ago, we were mother and son, and that I lost him in battle.
[14:56] And she said, that's why he that's why I'm more anxious than I am trusting as a mother. And that's why he's really struggling at night, because that like he she said, it's like peeling layers of an onion back. And she actually said to me, he he got shot in his right leg and I can show you. And he was three at the time. And she got into hop on the other leg and then said hop on the right leg. Like, and she could, it was, it was insane. She knew she could see what a state I was in. And she was the first person who said to me, this is his journey and nothing that you can do about around this. Like you're not doing anything wrong. This is the journey that he's got to go through. And that was so healing for me. Basically, she, she released all these different energies and stuff. And two days later he slept through for the first time and he's slept through ever since.
[15:53] So, you know. Thank you for sharing that story. That is so beautiful. I believe in so many of those things as well. I didn't get that experience until my daughter was 13 and realised that this
[16:06] is her life and this is what we've done before and I had a very similar experience. It took me much longer to recognize our dharma, our karma together. But I think so much of what we're told when we're new mums is their behavior is something that is contributed to or affected by or caused by us. Like we are given this story of if your baby is sick, even if the birth is traumatic, there was something wrong with your body.
[16:39] You know, the fact that she was born with these deformities, like these, you know, couldn't turn her head, cheekbone didn't develop, her foot was pushed, you know, flat against her shin, she couldn't put her foot down, was because my womb was too small and she got stuck. So all of this language that we give mothers in this day and age means that her crying constantly in constant pain is somehow because my body didn't do it right. You know somehow the allergies maybe because of what you ate when you were pregnant like all of this is tied into this story around what it means to be a good mother and a good woman and all of this and then when your baby is crying endlessly for three years it is so hard to disconnect this.
[17:29] Self from this story and this connection you have with this little one and then there's that moment when you realize, no, no, this is just, that's who they are. They came out that way and they're here for their own story and they're here for their own lessons and I'm their mother in this lifetime and probably all the lifetimes beforehand or they were my mother in the last lifetime and now we've swapped or whatever the story is. But we have to get to this point of realizing that this is not my fault and it's not something I can fix today by trying harder or in my case, interviewing somebody, tracking down that one expert in the world that can explain why my kid is the way she is and why I am the way I am. We have to get to that point of, I don't know, self-acceptance and acceptance of who they are, don't we? Absolutely. And how do we support women? How do we support women going through this? And how do we get this out to the wider world?
[18:31] For me, my brain being the way that it is and the way that I like to think, it was life-changing to look at both what matrescence is. So I gave a brief description at the start, but matrescence came from a phenomenal anthropologist and breastfeeding a mother advocate in the 1970s in America called Dana Raphael. And I love that she was an anthropologist. I think that's important because she looked at it as in, where did we go so wrong? Like, you know, ancient cultures, the matriarch was the lead. We had phenomenal villages and we had women who supported women. And how did we get to the point in America in the 70s where breastfeeding was the abnormal and medical interventions was common and postnatal depression and antidepressants for mothers was rife, like in the 60s, in the 50s and 60s. So she looked at what was happening and said, well, I think we need two things here. One, we need a doula. So she was the one who came up with that idea of this woman in the room advocating for the mother because the whole system had shifted to just focusing on the baby and the experience of bringing the baby in healthy. Thank God, medical advances have made so many differences.
[19:51] But in that process, we'd forgotten about the mother. So she wanted an advocate in the room. And the other one was, we assume that you become a mother the minute you give birth or the minute you pee on a stick and two stripes show up. That's not what happens. Perhaps in the old days, in ancient times, mothering came naturally because we grew up in a village and we held our siblings. We were probably there at the birth of our siblings. We also were raised by our aunts and our cousins, and then we raised our cousins, and then the her cousin died and so we became the co-parent and we all raised each other and we don't do that anymore but we still assume that after she gives birth three days in hospital she'll go home and know what to do so that's when she came up with the idea of matrescence and I think understanding that but then also coupling that with an understanding of the identity of women in our male generation, meaning growing up being told I can do anything and be anything. Growing up in that the world is your oyster, you know, smashed through the glass ceiling. You don't need a man. You can be anything you want to be. There's these two competing stories of you're a woman and you should know how to do this. And also you're a woman and don't ever let this define you.
[21:18] And then you give birth and it completely defines you.
[21:24] But then you're like, but I can't be defined by motherhood. I was going to be a journalist. I was going to be a foreign correspondent. I was going to go over here and do all of these amazing things. And now what? I just want to stay home and bake cookies? What the hell happened to me? And so we fight this. Like in my book and in my work, I call it the inner split.
[21:44] It's this split between who we used to be, such this strong identity. And even if you didn't have a fierce independent streak like I did, all of us had this pre-mother identity, whether it was the way we interacted with our friends or how our body worked or, you know, I've had women who say, Amy, I don't resonate with the career thing. That was never me. But I love to ballroom dance. Like ballroom dancing was where I felt like myself. self and it was everything to me and I did competitive levels on the weekend and when you see her talk about that, her eyes light up and something shifts and it's that part of herself she's grieving. It's that part of her freedom and her independence or her strong body that she
[22:35] feels like she's lost and she's never going to get back again. So it doesn't always have to be a career split, but it's some kind of split where you You are who you used to be, and you're becoming the mother that you want to be, but there's this period of trying to figure out how they work together.
[22:53] And I think that's what we need to be able to tell women is coming, because I don't think you can avoid the split, just like you can't avoid the challenges of adolescence, but you can most definitely put signposts and warning signs and support and language and checkpoints along the way to make sure they don't fall off to the side or fall through the cracks. What's coming up for me here is, and I haven't thought about this for a few years, is the word mumpreneur.
[23:28] Yes. Mumpreneur, mumpreneur. So when I first launched this business eight years ago, it was called Making Mumpreneurs. And over the years, the word mumpreneur and the connotations around it has really changed. And it must be like five years ago, there was an article in the news that basically said that mumpreneur was a really derogative term and was belittling women and all these kind of things. And I was invited on BBC Radio 4 to argue the case of mumpreneur. And so I was putting it out to my community and I realised I had no idea how many people were triggered by the word mumpreneur. And it was really interesting because for me, it explains the kind of women like me who had made a change to start their business after having children in order to get a work-life balance. But in my mind, I saw it as empowering. I saw it as, you're a mum and you're a business owner, but so many women were reflecting back to me that it made them feel small and that they wouldn't be taken seriously.
[24:41] And the conclusion that I came to, whether this is right or wrong, and I'm interested to know what you think, I think is that actually this is
[24:47] more about how society sees mothers and sees motherhood and that that was affecting. That's why they were feeling so negatively about the word mumpreneur because of all of those things. What do you think?
[25:02] Look, I've got a love-hate relationship with this word too. I've gone through my period of really hating that word and arguing, why don't we have dadpreneurs and where is all the other versions of that? My current thinking is I wish we didn't need to have a word like that. But if we can embrace the activism around it, I think mompreneur, when I first heard it 10 years ago like you, or not even that long ago.
[25:32] It had this connotation of like a mum having a bit of a hobby on the side, like selling Tupperware or, oh, aren't you cute? You're a mumpreneur. I feel like it's changing.
[25:44] I feel like because so many of us have smashed that story and continue to, like yourself, like so many of us listening, who are using our mum businesses that did start out as small things on the side while we were raising our babies to then turn into a platform of empowering mothers to step away from the corporate rat race that makes us sick and makes motherhood invisible. I think it's turning. I do believe at the start it wasn't an empowering term. It was a little derogatory. it was a little small. It didn't have that intention. It just had that connotation. I think that's changing. I think there's an acknowledgement just because of the mass exodus of corporate around the world by mums. The world has noticed, oh, wow, these women are leaving because we're not supporting them. And then they go on and do some really amazing things and make lots of money and do it in a way that works for them and they're helping others do the same thing. Hmm, maybe we should listen to them. So I do think it's changed, yeah.
[27:02] And we need more role models. We need more women to look up to who are talking openly about balancing these things. So that's it. OK, so you are a bestselling author. You've got the Happy Mama Movement podcast.
[27:17] And I said to you earlier, I listened to your trailer and it literally gave me goosebumps. So definitely take a look at that. You're a speaker and a matrescence activist. I love that name. And in 2023, you established the Global Matrescence Foundation to change the way that mothers are supported and valued in the world.
[27:36] I mean, this is incredible. And you're obviously, you know, having this amazing positive impact. How have you built this around your kids as well?
[27:46] I'm not sure, to be totally honest. And I will then answer the question. But I want to say that there has been no magic formula. There has been no five steps to building this. I think I've been incredibly lucky in times where I seem to have stepped into things at the right time over the years. That is something I acknowledge has been part of me getting here is that I was blessed to be one of the first to really work with Dr. Aurelie Athan at Columbia University around what matrescence is. And she backed me and believed in me. And even though I couldn't do her degree because Columbia University at the time wasn't taking international students, she supported me one-on-one to basically do the course and understand matrescence. So I feel like I've met the right people who believed in me and what I wanted to do at the the right time. That has been a huge part of why I'm still here doing this.
[28:52] Secondly, I think the turning point for me, I think, Erin, has been that I used to think that I had to do all of it myself. I wanted to do everything. I wanted the podcast. I wanted at one stage to set up a media company to produce other podcasts around motherhood. I wanted to set up a charity. I I wanted to have, you know, programs. I wanted like a goop style lifestyle magazine. I wanted all of this. And I got to the point where I realized that maybe this wasn't just up to me.
[29:29] And my job instead was to create a village of women who felt the same as me to do it with me.
[29:36] And that was a real, when I look at my story, that was the biggest turning point. I think one, I've been blessed with women who believed in me and supported me along the way. And two, I then gathered other women who I could believe in and support.
[29:52] So I think it's such not a business answer. And I can answer specific business questions. But if I think about how I got here, it's really about the women around me, either people who believed in me before I did, or now me believing in others before they do. And then they're out there doing the work I want to do. Like, for example, I would love to be in government and change maternity leave policies around the world. And I used to lie awake at night thinking about how am I going to do this? What am I going to do? Who do I need to interview? I'm not exaggerating. I would like rack my brain thinking, how am I going to achieve this? I now have women Mama Rising facilitators in those roles. You know, just today speaking to a woman who is creating a, she wants to develop an app for a village of support. So if a woman, a new mom's on her own, she can go onto this app and find grandmothers that aren't grandmothers yet in her local community to help with postpartum support. Like all of these different ideas that I've had over the years, I found women who believed in it too and are now doing it with me. So I think that's been the biggest success for me.
[31:02] That is beautiful, wonderful. It's not a very business answer. I'm sorry. I'm actually not a great businesswoman.
[31:11] I'm sure you are. I'm sure you are. When you said about luck, I was thinking, is it luck or is it fate? I think it's fate. Absolutely. And I genuinely mean this. I believe matrescence chose me. Matrescence is this, oh, it gives me goosebumps. bumps. It's a gift. And I truly and deeply believe that it has the potential to change so much in this world. Because when we bring back the honoring of the mother and the matriarch and caring in our society and all the invisible things that happen behind the scenes that we don't value or pay or see in our world, I think we would live in a very different world. And for some unknown karmic reason, I seem to have been one who was gifted with that knowledge. And I take that very seriously. And I do believe that.
[32:07] And that's what I mean about, I know I've done some things that have moved this forward, but I also think I have been selected to do this, which is such a weird thing to say, but you know what I'm trying to say. I do. And so you, with your matrescence coaching coaching training. So you're training coaches to be able to go out there and support women during this period of their lives. That's right. So just quickly, my business story is I left the ABC after my third baby because finally the burnout caught up with me and I couldn't do it anymore as so many of our stories are similar. And never thought I would, sorry, that was my dog shaking in the background if you're worried about what that noise is.
[32:51] Never thought I'd be a life coach, Coached, just wanted to be a journalist, set up a magazine, a podcast, a blog. And then I built this phenomenal community, like thousands of mums who loved what I was writing each week.
[33:02] And then they started asking me, you know, can you do something with us, Amy? And so I somehow stumbled into a life coaching course, which I loved, and then offered coaching and was very successful quite quickly because I already had such a great community. I didn't start from scratch when I was a coach. which I already had thousands following what I was saying. But something was missing in that coaching. It was very goal-orientated. It was very, I mean, it was beautiful compared to some of the coaching out there, but it was very, it didn't have the motherhood lens on it. And I found very quickly that when you're talking about goals and actions, but you're coaching a mama who has three under three.
[33:47] And she hasn't even finished a load of washing in the last two weeks, let alone washed her hair. And you get on a Skype in those days and you say, how did you go with your goals over the last fortnight? Because you said you were going to run and you were going to talk to your husband about starting to have sex again. And you were going to go back to doing all the things that you used to do. I only made her feel worse about herself. So in the process of the next five to seven years, is I kind of developed my own way of coaching mums that was really successful. And then when I heard what matrescence was, I realized, ah, that's what I've been doing. And then worked with Dr. Athan and looked at all my experience and we developed this, I developed this coaching.
[34:29] Formula of combining the phenomenal coaching skills, which I still think everybody in the the world should have a coach, which they did, I wish they did, and an understanding of matrescence. Because if you just coach them without that, you're going to make them feel worse about themselves. And if you just talk about matrescence, then they understand it, but they can't do anything about it. So together, this is how we support mums to move forward. So yeah, that's now an ICF recognised coaching certification that we've been running since 2020. That sounds so powerful. It's amazing. Amazing. I feel very, very lucky every day to do this work.
[35:08] And what tips would you give to the women who are listening, who are trying to combine, you know, going through that period of matrescence and running a business and trying to be everything to everyone? I think the most important thing to do is to pause and check in with yourself about whether the place you're working at or the goals you're setting for yourself is aligned with where you are right now. I think it's so hard for us to know what we want to create, but still be deep in the depth of day-to-day motherhood. It's another version of that inner split. It's that another version of, if only I had time and energy and sleep and brain capacity, I know I could create a million-dollar of business and yet, oh my God, he's just come home from daycare with green snot again. And that means I'm not going to have any sleep for a week because he's going to give it to his sister and then she's going to give it to her brother and then that's just going to be my life for the next week. We have to be realistic about where we are, knowing that it will come and don't give up. Oh my God, don't give up. But be kind to yourself about where you are now. If I could finish with a quick story, Erin.
[36:28] Years ago, when my youngest, because I have three, when my youngest was really little, I signed up for this big coaching course in America, desperately wanting to build this business and get out of the ABC and change my life. And I worked with this phenomenal woman called Deborah Poneman. Deborah is a New York Times bestselling author, multiple times, was on Oprah and Phil Donahue and all of the things, had a huge platform, traveled the world on stages. And then disappeared.
[37:02] For like 18 years. And she was my coach. And she said there were times when after she gave birth to her first daughter, and as she was in the hospital room, she got a call from her agent who said, we've got you your own TV deal. Like we're in last stages of you being the next Oprah, and we want you in Singapore next week. And it's all happening, Deborah, we're ready to go. We've been building for years. And she said to him, I'm sorry, I'm a little busy. You're going going to have to call me back in 18 years. And she said, Amy, over the next decade, I'd turned the TV on and my students were on Oprah and I was cleaning up vomit. And do you think that was easy for me? Like I had moments thinking that was meant to be me. I was on my way and I had to remind myself over and over again, no, no, it's okay. My Dharma will wait for me. If this is what I'm meant to do, I can still be the mum I want to be now and it will come back.
[38:03] And then she was there for her kids and she did what aligned with her values was to really step back for a while. And then there was a time in her life where she thought, no, I think I'm ready. Wrote a new book back on top of New York Times bestsellers. Now is back on stages around the world. And her biggest message, which was one of the things people talk to me about all the time for my podcast is, my dharma will wait. If I am meant to be doing this, it will happen. It will wait for me. It will be there. Enjoy the babies. Let yourself sleep. Don't worry about the Facebook ad tonight. Tomorrow will be another day. It will be there. But it's so hard to remember that when we feel like it's going too fast and we're going to miss those opportunities. We don't. It'll be there. It'll come back.
[38:52] Oh, I've got tears in my eyes. There's a few, but it's literally, I'll send you the number of the episode. It changed my life. And it's one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned is your Dharma will wait. And I have to say, it did wait for me. See, now I'm going to cry. It did wait for me. My youngest is 10 now, and I'm now doing everything, everything I wanted to do. You know, the charity work that I wanted to set up, Everything is now starting to come, but holy hell, over the last decade, there's been times where I thought, I'm never going to get there.
[39:29] What I think is so powerful about that, and it really has made me cry, is the fact that it's a decade. It's not months or one year. No, it's not. And, God, I wish I'd known that. Well, I did. When she told me, it let my nervous system exhale. tale. She was such a beautiful example. And I loved how honest she was. If you'd like to listen to that episode of, I can't even remember if she was this honest in the episode or whether she was just honest with me, but she would say she would be so angry at the TV because there she is making, cutting up apple slices while someone who was, I don't remember who it was, someone very, very well known was one of her students, like Deepak Chopra or someone like that, like really big deal was then taking her platform. Like we can get stuck in that lack mentality, can't we? We get stuck in that, that was meant to be me. If I don't do it, then I'm going to miss out. Like that's what the patriarchy tells us. If you're not competitive, if you're not out there every day, you'll miss out. And we have to remember that what we're doing right now is important.
[40:39] Even though it's hard. Like I didn't love the toddler days at all. I found those incredibly hard and I did you know doubt whether I was going to you know get where I wanted to but I'm so glad I did stop and step back and do those years because it does come back yeah don't give up but also don't burn yourself out to do it now it'll come, amazing how can people find out more about you and get in touch with you So me personally, amytaylorkabazz.com. And on there, you'll find the links to the podcast and Instagram and all my social media. The podcast is called The Happy Mama Movement. Thank you so much, Amy, for everything that you've shared today. So powerful.
